Hello everybody. Welcome to yet another episode of my tech story. My name is Alice Kanjejo, your lovely host for this podcast.

And today we are joined by someone who I'm very excited to have a conversation with, more so because we more or less work in this, not only in the same industry, but the same kind of occupation ish or rather the sector, let's say sector in marketing. And she is also one of the lovely ladies we have in this season. Guys, as you know, in working in the tech industry, the female representation is growing, but there's still that disparity of between the male representation and women.

So I'm very excited to have yet another powerful woman lady to join us for this episode. And I will just get straight into her intro so that we can now get to know a bit more about her and what she offers and just more about her story. Today we have the lovely Patricia Wanjira in studio and I am very excited to share her story with you guys because it's already sounding juicy from this intro I'm about to read for you.

So Patricia is a product marketer who is very passionate about social innovation and she is currently the marketing and comms lead at Chums IO. Now, if you're an avid listener of this podcast, you are familiar with Chooms IO when we have Evans who is a software engineer, share his story. If you did not listen, go ahead and listen to that after you listen to this episode.

But yes, very exciting to have now a marketing perspective from Chums. Patricia also has five years of B to B sales experience in Unilever, which is a top FMCG company with household names such as Sunlight, Royco, Dove, etc. Holding multiple roles in regional and key account management.

Wow. I'm already very enticed by this story. I have a few questions which we'll get into for that statement, but let me just finish reading this powerful intro.

Her background stems from marketing and finance and she also holds a degree in Bachelor of Commerce Marketing and is a certified securities and investment analyst. It just keeps getting better and better, guys. As the marketing lead at Chums, Wanjira has led the successful go to market strategy and execution of the Chums app in Kenya with customer base growth of over 80,000 in under a year of getting regulatory approval.

Now, if you work in the startup life, you know this is not a small thing. Come on. Come on now, Chelsea.

Come on now. Sorry. Wanjira strives to be hopelessly curious and is on a mission to positively impact the world through brand building and storytelling.

Ladies and gentlemen, let's welcome Patricia Wanjera onto the podcast. Thank you so much. How did that know? I guess maybe I'm repeating myself all the time on this podcast, but I love letting my guests write their intro and read it out so that they can have a general outlook of what their accomplishments have been.

And how did it feel reading about that or writing that or hearing me say that about you writing it is actually a way of seeing how much you've actually accomplished exactly a span of a couple of years. But now when you're reading it, I'm just like I'm giving you that you should feel about yourself because that's who you are. This is not I'm reading for Sharon.

That is I don't know from where that I've just picked up randomly from LinkedIn. That's about you. So yes, that's very interesting and I'm very curious to know more about you and your story.

I think when you mentioned that you have experience in B, two B sales at Unilever, which is a top FMCG company, I think I wanted to give more context to my audience. What you mean by FMCG? Yeah. So it's an acronym which means fast moving consumer goods.

Okay. Yeah. So when you think about what you use on your day to day, what's in your routine from when you wake up, when you have breakfast, when you go to work, when you're getting ready.

So brands are you're interacting with brands along the way? And these are products you consume every day? Every day. So there are multiple players in that sector and Unilever has been a dominant one since the 18 hundreds having products in the personal care category, nutrition, home care. Okay.

That gives a bit more context. And I'm very interested to know more about your experience there at Unilever, but I guess we're not going to start there. I think we can just get straight into the story of how your tech journey began.

So where did you say you started getting your interest in tech or product marketing or marketing in general?

Because maybe you didn't or did you just go straight into marketing industry? What's funny is when we were first coming into here, you told me that you're a bit shy and talking on Mike. This is but normally when I meet people in marketing, they kind of have almost a similar personality to me, which I guess you've noticed is a bit more upbeat, very out present. I don't know why I brought that up now, but I just wanted to know your journey also getting into marketing as well.

Okay. So in terms of my curiosity around marketing, just to go back when you of course are pursuing a career, this starts when you are going through formal education, high school, uni. So I think the pivotal point is really right after high school where you're like, oh, am I going to be an engineer? Am I going to be a doctor, a lawyer? So for me, I was always I'm the last child.

So what that means, the ordinal position being the last one, you tend to be influenced by your older siblings and what they've done and what they've gone through. So my immediate older sister influenced a lot of what I wanted to do. So when she swinged to I want to be a lawyer, I also went into that direction, but I eventually got my voice, and I was very passionate and very intent on being a doctor.

Went registered for the mbchv in, I think. Moyuni. But I think on the last day, I was just like, do I really want to take this leap and go to this other realm? And I am not feeling like I've really explored all my options.

So this was in high school where you had that interest in getting to medicine? Yes, and then I just took a leap again, influenced by my immediate older sister. She'd gotten through University of Nairobi, done a Bachelor of Commerce in Accounting, seen her experience there, and I was like, let me go into maybe a course that will allow me to have options, because in third year, that's when you major, whether it's procurement, human resources, marketing. But at that time, I was very hell bent on pursuing finance because I love math.

I had an interest in that at that point. Wait, sorry, before we proceed, I want to know what was that shift in you for? Was it just your sister? But the shift from I think being a doctor and trying to pursue that is something very intense. And then that shift to finance is a big shift.

So I want to know that turning point where you are like, I definitely don't think this is for me. And finance is probably the way that I want to go. Oh, great.

So I was lucky enough to be exposed to so I had members of my family who are keen on getting me the opportunity to meet doctors, people who've practiced. So I got a chance to interact with lecturers in the multiple universities. Help me understand the different specializations.

Is it dermatology? Is it orthopedics is it all those areas? So in the process of doing all that, I was like, I don't think this is I decided, okay, let me go into an area that I can have options. You still don't know what you want. Exactly.

Because you're still very young, actually. The pressure to decide what you want to do, I don't know if there's a way they can make it better. That deciding point, I think it's also making it a bit more without having to specialize that this is exactly what you need to do after high school because you're 1819 and then you're making a decision that is impacting the rest of your life.

Exactly. So, yeah, I think it was a smart choice to go that direction because a lot of people end up just doing you know what I mean? I'm good in bio, so I guess it's medicine. Exactly.

I'm good in chemistry, history, law. I've never understood that connection, by the way. I don't know who told us, who told us the correlation is positive because it's really empathic.

Like, I'm good in history, I must be a lawyer. I think that was the biggest scum. Biology, medicine.

I guess I see it, but the difference in intensity is that one. Do you? Yes. I got exposed.

So the options went to all this. Got a chance to go to Moi, meet an actual other pedic surgeon, know what that's like? It's seven plus years of studying and practicing. So I was like, let me just explore these other options.

So I wanted to be at that time, I put my focus on being an investment banker, started setting those courses on being a certified finance and investment analyst. Went through that. So when it came to that year specializing, of course I was going to take finance.

But in the process of pursuing my professional certifications, I came across a course called Behavioral Finance, which allows you to see how even though you help people valuate investments, tell them this is the amount of return you get. This is how much a bond is valued at. This is what a stock price is and what you get to generate a return from people.

Don't invest rationally. You can create all the formulas in the world, but there are other big determinants on why people will invest or where their money will be placed. And that's usually pegged on their emotions.

So Behavioral Finance allowed me to come across concepts like mental accounting, where something is definitely valued differently in someone's mind. Like, you have this maybe, for example, a strong attachment in investing behind the car. You buy Visa, Vis, all these things that are telling you, don't buy this car, it won't make sense with the maybe income that you have.

Exactly. So I, at that point, felt the area where I'd be able to actually make an impact was in marketing. And that's how I transitioned into specializing in marketing, because I felt that would be an area that would help me with this knowledge on why people invest or why people make decisions the way they do.

Marketing is a space where I learn how to impact, basically impact people's behavior, which ultimately impacts their actions.

Yeah, well, that's a very interesting way to put it. And I think it makes so much sense because even when I was in Uni, we did a lot of behavioral analysis and how people's actions are influenced by very many things.

And it starts with the behavioral what was it that we were saying? Your thoughts become your actions, and then your actions become your behavior. So you have to figure out how you're going to get through that pipeline to get to the consumer. And yeah, it's very happy that that's the career.

Do you have any regrets? No. I remember a bunch of us who had already taken up finance first semester of that year. Then we were just like, this is not it.

Valuing companies, mergers and acquisitions that was not exciting, I think me and my friends at the time. So we decided to drop finance, take up marketing, and never looked back. Yeah, because it's just been a series of this is not resonating with what I envision of giving me joy.

So yeah, never. No, I love that because for me, I think I went there out. Okay, sorry for using me as an example.

I'm relating to your story in a sense of now I work for a fintech company, but my path was very marketing, communications, rather oriented, PR oriented. But right now I find myself starting to think of course, every day I'm interacting with these product guys and David, the CEO where I work and just getting to hear about the investments or the money side of things or even just not them. Like me interacting with people not only in the fintech industry, but in the tech industry and how they think.

And of course, because my personalization was so much in the communications aspect of things, there's a lack that I have when it comes to now pegging it to a specialty like finance, like you do, because you said, this is finance and you have that background and then you pegged it with marketing. For me, it was more like just marketing and everything I'm learning as I go right now, I'm thinking maybe I should do a course in, like, investments or this and that. And so that's why I think I also love having a space like this where it also gives people opportunity to know that, hey, there are better ways of taking a trajectory of both your career and also how you manage your finances and how you have an outlook of that from people like you.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's really interesting. Okay, so you study, you've decided to pivot into marketing.

You're now focusing on this. How did the journey proceed from there? Yeah. So, again, when you're in, shout out to anyone in University of Nairobi, lower Cavetta campus, School of Business usually, let's say a class.

We are a class of 300 guys. So you all know that after this, you either go into the Big Four because they'd set up maybe recruitment drives coming for guys at University of Nairobi. So at the time, I knew I didn't want to go into audit.

I didn't apply, which was like, people would be like, why are you reducing your chances of getting a job? So everybody was going into the auditing direction. So even as a safety net, I was very intent on working with organizations that I'd seen do the big things. And in terms of marketing, what strikes you first is advertising.

So who's throwing around a lot of money behind advertising? FMCG players. So it's very intent on getting into the multinational players in this country. PNG.

Yes, unilever PNG Diage. Because that's where you're seeing people flexing in terms of exactly being able to run campaigns immediately. Your initials always go big or go home because people sometimes are as I grew my career.

But guys, what I love about my guests on this podcast, literally almost everyone, their natural instinct was, okay, so what's the next step? Safaricom the big boys or looking to okay, I'm looking to build my own product and this is what it's going to do. So I love so I applied to unilever and I got a chance to join their sales team. So that's when I transitioned into now again, my focus was marketing, but I got into sales.

So it's usually a very different area in terms of because in marketing you're brand building, you're developing the brand and communication. In sales, you're actually hitting the ground running. Right.

And this includes selling. Yeah, you just have to sell. You have in between, have you got the customers that you need? Yes.

Sorry to take you back, but this was after you finished tuning or was this while you were still in uni? After I finished tuning, did you have a period where you didn't have anything you were doing? Yes. And how long was that and how did that make you feel when you didn't have a job at that time? Or did you have something maybe just to sorry. In University of Nairobi, one of the things actually that positively influenced me to join UN loa Cabette was something I'd seen my sister experience, which is there's a program called Greenhorn Mentorship Program.

It's Student Train mentorship program where students have reached out to mentors in the corporate world, match them with students in uni to help them transition or get a glimpse of what's out there. So immediately I joined. Of course I signed up.

Membership I think is still 500 shillings. But 500 shillings when you're in uni, that's ten X regular membership. That's lunch for even the week.

So I joined had a chance to get a mentor when I was in first year. This was someone who was already in the corporate world, really connected with her. She gone the audit route, transitioned into industry, like now living audit.

And I got so many learnings then, even though she was not in the field, that I was curious and interested in joining. There are nuances and learnings. I picked then in that year for they also got another mentor.

And in the process of that I got to meet people even who I got a chance to work with in unilever while I was in uni. So during my period of transition, maybe from uni to work, I got a chance to so when some of the mentors I had interacted with figured out I hadn't maybe secured a role, I got a chance to intern. So I actually did a three months internship at recruitment company thanks to a connection I had made through a mentor.

That gave me an opportunity to see what headhunting looked like, what learning and development looked like, understand and appreciate the HR space. But I got a chance to do all those things thanks to, I think, mentorship that has carried on and continued to inspire who I am right now. Yeah, but it played a very big role in helping me know what is out there, helping me transition from uni to the workplace.

Yeah. So that's what I was up to. Okay, that sounds better than what some people's stories are, because normally that tarmacing of not finding a job can be a very intense moment for people who are in Uni.

But I think the route of having a mentor from first year is something that a lot of people don't have. So I'm very happy that you took that route and you had that opportunity. It's something that maybe I wish I had.

I think Strathmore also tries to I was in Strathmore and they tried to give you a mentor first year, and they make sure I think it's also a requirement for the lecturers that you're going to be given a mentor. But in that sense, it makes it feel forceful or you get a mentor that you're not particularly vibing with or in touch with. So my mentor, we met once, but I didn't feel that connection anyhow.

But I think it shows that I don't think there's anyone I've met who's had a mentor or two who's regretted having that person to give them some form of advice. So I love that. Taking it now to you're now one of the big boys.

But in sales. Take us through that. So, joined straight out of Uni, I was handed keys to a D Helux pickup, told Go and sell.

So, of course, that was a challenge, as you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, or even anyone who knew me back in Uni. I'm not the typical marketer who's very upbeat, talkative, generally introverted. So putting me at the forefront of selling, talking to customers, going on the ground, that really opened up in terms of giving me an opportunity to explore areas and strengths that I had been very latent and it was a really challenging and eye opening experience.

So I started off in regional account management. So what happens in the distribution or route to market space? You have what you call traditional retail. These are your kiosks, your small shops that people buy from.

And then there's modern retail where people walk in self service, what you call typically a supermarket. Yeah. So I was handling I started off with regional supermarkets in different parts of the country.

So I'd go off to Nakuru, South Nyanza, got a chance to experience different opportunities to work with retailers in different parts of the country, gain insights on what is selling there, because habits and what people are picking from shelf informs, what products to push, and what will help you unlock your sales numbers. So I got a chance to do that, then transitioned into what we call key account management, where you look after now the sophisticated supermarkets, the naives, the quickmarts, the Kafus. So at the tail end of my stint at Unilever, I was looking after Kafu shoprite game.

And that gave me an opportunity to bring in transformational relationships in terms of what these retailers have experienced from Unilever in other markets, and merge that with what we offer here in terms of range, in terms of pricing, in terms of support to bring mutual relationships to fruition. So that was also a really interesting experience. And it was also a time when things were a bit trucking.

The modern retail space. We had Nakumat go down, we had Tuskis go down. Which year was this? So I started out in 2016, transitioned into Kiacom management in 2017, tail end of 2017.

So when Nakumat was taking a hit, that's when Caf was coming up. So they were rapidly expanding, they were rapidly becoming important to the business. So you had to bring in what their expectations were in this market, help them grow and support them so that you mutually are serving customers who walk in and find their products on shelf.

Yeah, that was an interesting two and a half, three years. But I'm sure you learned a lot because, I mean, you're traveling around the country, you're walking into talking to different people, the people you find merchandising, putting products on shelf. What will sell in a particular store, even within Nairobi, is not what will sell out in another store.

So picking that and I feel like that was one of the points where I appreciated tech, because we have all this the element of big data, because there's all these numbers flying around, like all these park sizes, selling at these price points. You needed to understand, how do you position that when you have a new innovation, a new variant, which park size should you place in this store versus this other store? What level of investment? So you need a lot of data analysis. Channel that back to the team internally so that you have a successful launch and innovation.

Also use that data to help a customer understand, you know, I want you to buy X. This is Y, because we'll give you X number in terms of support, and we'll mutually grow. So you'll buy from us, your customers will benefit because they'll find the right park at the right price.

I think big data was the first point of my liking and my allure yes, in the back end, tail end of and then so this was all through from 2018 to 2020. And the pandemic hit. The inspiration I drew from Unilever is it's a very purpose driven company where brands are pushed to have a purpose.

So you'll see, like, for example, in the context of Kenya, we have a brand like Lifeboy that's dedicated to helping people natural habits around hygiene. And that brings in, for example, or reduces chances of kids, let's say, for example, under the age of five, coming across germs and getting sick, purpose driven brands is something that was very big and something that I picked up from Unilever. So being in sales, I was able to deliver in terms of execution, but I was not part of the in terms of strategy of having that rollout in the market, and I had a strong yearning for that.

So when COVID hit and everyone was just, like, introspecting, what do I really want to do? Having done this for about five years, I was like, I think I want to explore again. I got into that space where I want to explore. I decided to take a career break.

You decided to take a career break? Yeah, I decided to take a break. Okay. That is a very audacious thing to do.

Yeah. Smack in the middle of the pandemic. Because how was it working in the pandemic? And then I think did the pandemic heavily influence your decision to take a break, or was it just you were exhausted, and it was like you need something new, something fresh for your excitement.

So it was having, I think, been in Liver for around four to five years. Yes. I had felt I wanted to explore, so I was really, really drawn to the impact work that the brands were doing, and I wanted to be more involved.

I felt I could, of course, do that by growing within the organization. Transitioning and opportunities were there, but I also felt there was always this yearning to discover and explore what else which other industry excites me? And that's the other space where I think my sister keeps telling me, my sisters always ask me whenever they have an issue or they want help, I'm always telling them, there's this app, there's this solution. I know that please.

Yeah. I've had a love for tech, so I always felt I hadn't scratched. That itch.

So taking the break, being curious about other spaces that piqued my interest, was something that all culminated in 2020, smack in the middle of the pandemic. Yeah. So that was in November 2020.

So how long was your career break and what did you do within your career break and how did you transition to your next role? Yeah, so that was I think it was six to nine months. Wow. Six to nine months of wanting to just for example, it's what I think people call what are they called? Like, Agapia, when you're maybe still in Uni, want to take a break before you transition into full time working? So that's what I decided to do in the middle of my career.

So I explored so many things during the pandemic. I picked up a love for plants. I'm so excited to see all the plants here.

If I'm not looking at it's, the photos there, that's just picking my eyes. So I decided to start a business where we'd get gardening essentials with a friend of mine and sell them to curious house plant owners. I spent a lot of time, of course, taking up courses in areas that I was interested in, which was social impact, in just chilling, just taking it easy.

So that's what I was doing. And in the process, that's how I transitioned into Chums. Yeah.

What do you mean in the process? That's how you transition. You know, when people regularly take a career break or not? Okay, rarely do people take career breaks, which maybe should be normalized, but it's also because of the uncertainty of what your career is going to become. If I take this break, will I still be able to deliver the things that I want to deliver? What? I like that.

You said in your career break that you two are having interest in courses. I mean, plants, okay, plan seems like a you are taking it as a hobby, but you are still doing courses and everything. But I think people would be curious to know how you are able to make that transition now back into a career in tech, because it's not a natural process for a lot of people as well.

Definitely. So I think was it recently I read somewhere where someone was saying who said that you have to, for example, continue working in a specific role to get to a certain level of, for example, pay so that you feel that you're doing what you're supposed to do, right? Who said that's the narrative. Who said you can't stop what you're doing or you don't have to progress and then start afresh.

So I keep saying this. I'm very privileged that I didn't have dependence when I was making the decision. So I didn't have kids.

I was not looking after anyone. I was only responsible for myself. And of course, there are lifestyle adjustments to taking a decision where you are stopping.

Exactly. So there were, of course, financial considerations for that. The transition happened.

I had a chance to interact with a couple of the team members at Chums. I think it was actually in 2019, when they had just started researching the product, seeing an opportunity that people were not saving and why they were not saving. So in the process of that research, I was one of the people who were answering the question, so how do you save now? So you are familiar with the person who worked at the team rather than Sam and Jogu when they were doing the research.

How did you know them? Sorry. It's okay. I met them through a mutual friend from Uni.

So when Sam and Jogu were starting off their first startup, that was around in third year, I was in third year, got a chance to meet them. They were starting off at C Four dealer. So when I had a chance to go to Chiron and see what they were doing.

So that's when we got acquainted. So we kept the friendship going. So now in fast track to 2019, when they were researching the app and the opportunity sizing the opportunity, I got to hear about it and just keeping up and keeping tabs on each other in 2020, 2021, when they were just about to now start seeking approval to enter the sandbox, that's when I saw an opportunity.

They actually invited me. Like yo, we feel like you have an experience in B two B. There will be opportunity for business development and B two B in tunes.

You can come in and just take part in our discussions as we are ideating and that's how best case scenario guys, I think again, something that we repeat on this podcast is it opportunities and opportunities when luck meets preparation. I feel like you being there, learning more about the product and being there at the right place at the right time. Even if maybe initially you didn't have the idea of I need to be in this company.

I think you were in the right place at the right time and you are also prepared for that eventuality, which is something that we really advocate for here. So, yeah, very interesting to hear that that was how you got now into tune into the role and then now growing. Also when you're doing a startup, it's hard to find people who believe in your product as much as you do.

Yes. And so people who join your team, again, you're very passionate about scaling this product but you also need to find a team that is also equally or at least will want to put the same amount of effort into scaling what you're building. And so I think that loyalty as well is something that they really many startups value.

And one big quote that Dominic said on this podcast is that the right people can build the right product, but the wrong people can never build the right product. The people are the greatest assets that you have. And so I think that's also what your story is an actualization of that in that I feel like they really said that we really want to keep you in and then we'll make your role to what it's going to be today.

And when you take a bet on something guys, I think also because you did an analysis of cost benefit and maybe you didn't have anything to lose at that time, as I mentioned, the worst thing they could say is no, you can come and you move on and you move and you go on your journey. Yeah. So actually the interesting bit is when I was joining, what they were seeing is my skill set in B two B because that's the experience that I had but also my curiosity to learn.

And at the time I was pursuing courses on product management because again, wow, back to what I were getting ready yeah, back to what I was feeling. I wanted, I was yearning. And that inspired my transition was if you know, the kind of role or the kind of expertise expected from someone in product is championing the vision and kind of vision of what the product will look like to serve customers.

And that's what I was intent on coming to see. I remember even when I was undergoing the courses, I was using Chums as a case study to learn how to write user stories, how to do research, how to do the all those things. So it was such a practical experience for me.

I was learning and I was learning in Was and I think that's how I actually now came to and I saw Dominic in action and that's how I've met you. So seeing someone carry that vision, be deliberate about understanding what the customer wants is expecting, delivering that through, working with engineers, that was what really drew me into, of course, Chums. I think also some key takeaways that I'm hearing from you is that I think the biggest one is that a lot has to do with the connections that you're building.

Even it's funny, when we are in Uni, we are always told, or we used to always be told that just be friendly to everyone. These are the people who you're going to be meeting and these are the people who are going to give you opportunities or whatnot. When you're at that time, it's like, okay, whatever, I'm just in union, I'm just here to do class.

Okay, where are we going to party next? Top priority, whatever. Top priorities. Number one, enjoyment number two, whatever it is.

But now last was like the education bit of it. Okay, maybe not for some people. Honestly, me being in COVID Uni, like uni was the least of my priorities.

I was busy trying to figure out how I'm growing my podcast and my YouTube channel, but it all came out. Did a full 360. But I wanted the connections bit of things.

I think guys say it, but really like the practicality of it. Connections can do wonders that any other thing can't do. I think putting yourself in the right spaces.

Go for those workshops, go for those what are they called? Yeah. Meet people outside your niche. Meet people outside your niche.

You never know if maybe what you're doing is not even what you're supposed to. Exactly. Be kind to everyone when you go to a space, don't live without saying hi to at least it really changes because one day you'll tell them, hey, by the way, I don't know, I do marketing for a tech company.

But five years in and they are looking for someone who does something that you mentioned. There's a guy, remember, that I met in Nairobi who did this, this and that, and that's how you get those opportunities. And that's even how I got my job.

Okay, of course I did a very intense interview, but just me knowing Sima from high school, just a random like we follow each other on Instagram and he knows that I do some content here and there on YouTube and then here we are. So yeah, I think I just wanted to really highlight the importance that making connections and also, of course, treating people as people exactly. Not looking at what that person can help you at that point exactly, but exactly.

Just wanting to connect with them at that human element and human level. And also just keeping in mind that easier said than done. Of course, I think we're all chasing the bug, of course, at the end of the day, but also just keeping it.

I think having the mentality of I'm not looking for just a money opportunity, I'm looking for an opportunity on how I'm going to be a part of something that is making change or making an impact the world or something that you can be passionate about. I think once you have that mindset, it's easier for you to penetrate into because you're building a solution for people and not because you're looking for financial cause. Because even the way you speak on the product or even the way you speak of yourself or what you're looking for, 100% will be impacted by what your personal mission is.

I think it's very important for us to think about that as well. And I'm saying this because we're related to what you said. It's like you are looking into that thing that you had an itch to scratch the product side of things and you were using tunes just as case studies just to make yourself understand like this on top of the self fulfillment.

It's also like how else you also mentioned the behavioral changes. How else can you impact people's behaviors through the work that you do? I think that's a powerful message. And now we can go back to now you getting into Chums and now you're helping them scale.

What's been your experience working in marketing for a tech company? Really the changes that you've been experiencing? I think, for example, having our every time we do an annual review, it feels like it's been years. Within a year, a quarter feels a lot can happen. And I think the thing I've come to realize is you hit milestones and because you're always constantly chasing other, you don't take time to realize, wow, we did that.

We need to sit in this moment before we keep moving. But it's been at first, of course, I'm coming from a place where it's a company that has structures, it's siloed, it's big to a startup, to a startup. But of course I had already that expectation not there.

I came with a very open mind and very with that owner's mindset where you're owning the product, you're owning the process, you're owning the journey and being around people who are very curious. Being around people who are open to helping, open to learning was even more powerful and reduces all that maybe change in environment. But again, I had taken a six to nine months break and tried a business, so I knew I was ready.

You were ready? Big change for me. But it was, of course, very exciting. Every day is different.

Getting a chance to work with entrepreneurs. You know how one day can start in one way and end takes a complete return? Yeah. So it's been very rewarding, very eye opening experience.

Just to start off what you think is the definition of marketing changes, or what rules and descriptions, what bounds you can't go into this or you can't go into that. In a startup, when the structure is very linear, it's about ownership and running with things because things change. So I have had an opportunity to explore and get out of my comfort zone.

So instead of saying, oh, I'm only responsible for customer acquisition, you get to chime in into maybe something that will help in the overall productivity of the team. You'll get to chime in on other areas, like if it's platform stability. At the time, I came in helping in with marketing, but I was very curious with product management, so I spent a bit of time nagging and tagging at events who'd been in software engineering.

Curious as to how maybe, for example, he runs his day, he goes about scoping a feature and all those elements. So with an open space to learning and just running into meetings, you're there to learn and everyone knows you're there to learn. If you ask the weirdest and dumbest question, no one will judge you, they'll answer you.

So it's been a very great startup experience. Yeah. And of course, the brand when I was joining, we had very low equity, we had a low customer base.

That's true. Yeah. So you started genuinely from zero to zero, defining the brand guidelines, defining what we want people to perceive us, refining who our target audience is.

As you know, Chums app is a saving and investment platform that allows people to save from as low as five shillings. So this means anybody can use the app. Exactly.

But when it comes to marketing, you have to hone in, you have to know who you're speaking to, you have to know the language, you have to know the channels that you want to tap into. You work in a startup environment, your budgets are limited, so you have to take the money that you have. That you have.

Exactly. Make sure you're making choiceful investments. But also the environment and culture tunes has been very encouraging in terms of you try fill, fast and move.

Yeah. I mean, that's how it's supposed to be. Like, the mentality is you can't wallow in what didn't work exactly move, and you need to keep pushing yourself to move forward.

But that's very interesting. Yeah, I think just to give a bit more context, what does your role entail as a product marketer in case someone is looking to get into product marketing? I think you've just mentioned you do marketing for a B, two B level, which I'm assuming is probably different from a B to C level as we are social media this that we are out there. But I'm guessing it's also what you do because it's a startup.

I guess maybe just give me context on what your day to day looks like. Yes, my day. Okay.

My day can change. Okay. Rather just an overview of what your role entails.

My role in writing would entail any communication. We are pushing out to partners, stakeholders, and of course our customers, of course, even internally with a team. But it's my core, for example, like Targets or KPIs around customer acquisition.

How can we get more customers on the platform and also spills over to retention? So I'll spend a lot of time with our customer support team to understand what challenges are people experiencing, how can we communicate that better? How can the platform communicate that issue and also bring that back now into engineering? Like we're having an issue with this feature. People are not receiving as best. So it entails elements of communicating by bringing more people to the platform and making sure they stay.

Essentially in terms of when you look at the Organogram, for example, I'll interface with the development team, the product and engineering team, in terms of bringing feedback on what or how the product has been perceived or received, what changes need to come in interfacing with customer success. Like what are people saying, spending a bit of time speaking directly to customers? Is this what's the challenge? And now managing and running with efforts around acquiring customers on the platform. So if it's advertising, if it's organic content, if it's testimonials, making sure all those parts are moving okay.

Yeah. So that's what my day to day looks like. Okay.

Makes sense. Probably what I had in mind as well on what your role could potentially look like. So yeah, guys, tech doesn't mean you have to be the dev can also just come along, join us in the marketing team.

Very exciting. Honestly, if there was a niche for that. Of course depend.

Of course, with my personality. I think the marketing and communication side of things is the more so interesting side of things because product or engineer, they are so focused on this thing needs to be perfect, but by the time they think about how we're actually getting customers, it's like a by the way thing. And that should be the number one thing because, okay, we are building, building.

Okay. Every day is just coding. But what are you coding for? But I think it's the culture that's been there, especially from Silicon Valley where you're consistently obsessing about your product and you know, if you obsess and make sure you get a perfect product.

It will pull customers, but especially in the space where you're taking people's money, they need to trust you through efforts on awareness and spending money. Behind that needs to come in and complement the really beautiful product that you've designed and come up with with something that people can resonate with. I agree 100%.

But I guess that's why it's collaborative. You can't just do everything by yourself. Sometimes you need a team and a powerful team, and yeah.

I'm happy to see how far Trums has come, and I'm excited to see the journey that it's going to keep taking, I think. As we wrap up wow, that was a powerful episode. Thank you so much for having me.

You're welcome. As we wrap up, I'm going to ask you just a few questions that I ask my guests at the end of every episode. And nothing too crazy, just very simple questions that you should have shared this as well.

I did share this as well. You didn't read my oh, my gosh. Maybe I just opened you just opened the other document.

I didn't open the word I was supposed to read. I did send them, but the episode has gone flawlessly. So no one had, like great.

So what is one word to describe the journey to get to where you are today and why? One word? Yeah. If you're to wrap up your tech story, what's one word you would use and why? I think it's curiosity. And the reason for this is without that.

Okay. The reason I go back to that is we've consistently been spaces or I have consistently been spaces where I've had to break off from what I've perceived is expected of me and taken a risk to be curious about something that's very undefined. So that's how, of course, I made the leap to tech and where I am now.

And it happens. I don't know if it's our education system that just at one point just steals or takes away our curiosity. So you have to be very divergent when you now go off the band and you're curious about other areas than what the path that's been defined or what's expected is.

Okay. Yeah, I get that. That's a lovely one, and I genuinely think it wraps up your story because you talked a lot about curiosity.

Yeah. Okay. And what advice would you give to someone who is aspiring to get to where you are today? I think would say in the time and space we are in now, literally whatever will limit you is yourself.

You are your own limit. Yeah. No one is busy thinking about you and all the mistakes you're making.

Nobody. The way they do it for 510 minutes and then they continue getting wrapped up in their own. So for especially introverts like me who can go off on the overthinking tangent, we call it in the behavioral psychology space it's called the spotlight effect, where you're thinking the spotlight literally is on you.

Everything is revolving around you. Yeah, but everyone else feels the same way. So they'll pick out and see someone said, someone thinks someone would want that for you, and then they go back and retreat into their own space.

So fight that urge to think that everyone is thinking that you're making the wrong move, you're making mistakes. So pursue whatever you are very curious and passionate about now. There are so many tools and enablers.

People are open to having difficult conversations when you are stuck in a rut, when you are of course, we are living in the very tough economic times. It's also you're like, I can't make this move now, I can't make this choice now, I can't make this change now. But if not now, when? If not now? Yeah, if not now, when? So overcome that spotlight effect and go forth.

Go forth, go forth. You'll fail and people will speak about it for ten, five minutes and they literally people move on so fast, you think about it for ten years. Literally, people move on in 2 seconds.

Yeah. And it's what I've seen. Also, working with entrepreneurs, they feel a feature will be launched, it fails, move on.

No one will be busy bashing your field feature for the rest of people will move on. I mean, and if it's failed, how many people have actually seen the failure? If it's too magnified in your mind again, it will affect you deeply, which is not it's not their mindset to have, especially in the ever evolving tech space and especially in the startup life. So, 100% agree.

And do you have any regrets or anything that you wish you would have done differently in your journey? Or do you feel like it all came full circle? I think everything has taken its course. Like at the timing when I decided to transition, take a career break, or when I decided to drop finance, when marketing, everything has taken its course because I can't really change a lot of that. I can't value so much in that.

So it's just to take all that energy and go back and think, oh, if I did that, I can definitely overcome the I love that. Yeah. I think it's all been a part of your journey, honestly, because the experience for In Unilever I think also has influenced who you are today and also just who you are going to keep tunes is also going to influence.

And I think, honestly, I strongly believe that everything you experience is exactly what you're meant to experience to get to where you're supposed to be. Like, when you reach your end good, everything will start making sense. Like, that's why I had to do this, that's why I probably did this.

And then now I'm good at it now. You know what I'm saying, guys? The journey is the destination. You think you're getting to.

I love that. Yeah, that's a Ted talk. So you have to find your settle in it.

And we like, that was part of actually, studies on happiness. It's not like the end. It's these moments of enduring hardships that you look like I did.

That last question is give us a powerful parting shot to close off your episode. You've just given that one. You have.

You actually have. The journey is the destination. There's nothing else to add there.

Honestly, that is the parting shot. Thank you so much for gracing this podcast, guys. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure that you subscribe from wherever you're listening from.

It's absolutely free and helps us scale this podcast. And if you enjoyed this episode, imagine how many other people would enjoy it. Just think of it.

The journey is the destination. So the journey of you just following subscribing is also part of the process. Make sure you also share this episode with your friends, family, or whoever you think would be interested in this conversation.

And I don't know if you were going to leave us a couple of links that you think people could follow up on your journey on or you don't have to, but if there's something maybe your LinkedIn. Yes, I'll definitely share my LinkedIn. We'll share with our audience.

You never know. Another opportunity, someone is listening in. I'm also part time recruiter.

Not that she's leaving, guys, but I'm also quickly realizing that this could also be used as your so, yeah, guys, thank you so much for tuning in and we'll see you in the next episode. Thank you so much for having me, Alice. Yeah, thank you.

This was a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed sharing your story and insightful for yourself as well. Definitely.

It's been a really nice experience. Thank you so much. Thank you.

All right, guys, I'll see you next time. Bye.

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